Out of Line EP 16 | Inside Staffing's Big Shakeup: MSPs, AI, and What Comes Next | Bryan Howlin

Bryan Howlin I think there's a couple major seismic things happening in staffing. One I think and I say this with all due respect 'cause I know a lot of people in these firms, the big publics

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin are really reeling. They're struggling. I read one of the big ones

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin like actually lost money in Q one. Like it didn't grow, but like lost money.

Tiffany Scott Wow.

Bryan Howlin they're trying to figure out how do we go from, you know, staffing and staffing on steroids, which was really our only solution, to getting into solutions. where,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin you know, somebody like, you know, I'll I'll give them a plug, I don't work there anymore, but like tech systems, they transitioned into solutions years ago. And

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin they're really that's where they're dry, that's where the revenue opportunities are. And these companies are trying to figure out how to get there, right? Cause they're

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin all everybody's in the same boat. You lost, I think the numbers about 25% of the opportunities in technology, just Not accounting finance or healthcare, but in technology,

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin about 25% of the need is gone. So you have 25% less of the pool that you're all going after, right? So they're

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin trying to figure out how do we get in the solution space. And and then and and on the on the reverse effect of that, there's smaller firms that are doing really well. I know this this woman, she's running this company out of Atlanta, very bright. He she's gone out and hired a really smart CSO, and they are very much Owning the responsibility of we are going to be an AI partner. hired very

Tiffany Scott Hmm.

Bryan Howlin smart people, like they've invested. It wasn't like, hey, we're gonna

Tiffany Scott Interesting.

Bryan Howlin say we're gonna do this. Now go tell our salespeople, hey, this is what you need to go sell. Like

Tiffany Scott Gotcha. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin we're building the infrastructure, we're building something that matters, so then we can deliver that to the client. So

Tiffany Scott Right. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin that's that's the first thing. And then the second thing is just all the PE money that's in staffing right now, like the pressure, right? That company,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin it's I wouldn't be surprised if there's PE money, like, hey.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin We're at 50. We need to be at 250 in four years. It's like, okay,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin but how are you going to get there? You know.

Tiffany Scott Yeah. I don't know. My exp the only difference I would say is my experience with PE is they do push the strategy. They want to know how a little bit more. And and I don't know if those are numbers guys, could they would they really even allow that? all I talk to are staffing people. and there's especially solopreneurs that are just running their own on their own, doing the whole desk or offering more solutions-based, full solutions versus just doing the staffing. And that I'm hearing that so often now. And I think People, you know, the the big names used to be able to get away with anything because they were the big names. And I think there's, you know, these little guys are coming out the gate with better partnerships, still competitive pricing, but human cap when we talk human capital, we're also in a culture where people matter more. this isn't like it was twenty years ago where you just have a bunch of of bodies. you know, making and selling widgets. People want culture. People want, you know, to have healthy long term employees. So I I think this my opinion is companies are caring more about who they're getting. They don't want to just get resumes slapped in their face. And unfortunately,

Bryan Howlin Rem.

Tiffany Scott sorry big names, but that's what you guys are known for. You're known for Getting a turnaround within an hour and I can look through twenty resumes, but they're not vetted the way that some of these smaller boutique shops are, you know.

Bryan Howlin Yeah, well, I mean smaller, you're just you're more nimble, right? You can just do a lot

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin more. And you don't have the pressure of public, right? You've got a stock price

Tiffany Scott yeah.

Bryan Howlin to hit, you've got, you know, investors that are responsible for your a delivery. So yeah, and the and

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin the funny thing you said, Tiffany, is the the word that I think is always the ground of everything is culture. I think

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin some of these companies that are struggling, they've lost their way with culture, right? They've

Tiffany Scott They have. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin You know, they've they've really taken their eye off the ball. There's and look, there's accountability, you have to have leadership, you

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin have to have expectation of all the, you know, producer sales and recruiting. But

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin there has to be a culture. They have to want to be there because so many firms popped up in the last 20 years. You can go somewhere

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin else if it's a better cultural fit and just take your

Tiffany Scott Absolutely.

Bryan Howlin book, your Rolodex with you.

Tiffany Scott And I don't think accountability and expectations are a bad thing. I think it they're a good thing i if presented properly, you know? and I think it starts with the expectations. if you don't know you're gonna be held accountable, well, you already are in and on the wrong foot when you when you're shocked that you didn't meet your numbers and you get in trouble. Probably should be told that from the beginning.

Bryan Howlin Yeah, here are the expectations. And then also

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin who who's doing a good job of managing, you know, because the numbers have changed, right? Getting your 10 meetings a week,

Tiffany Scott Yeah. yeah. Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin you know, I have a hard time believing that new reps in a market, let's say they're going after mid-market, are getting their 10 true meetings a week. It's just not possible, right? So you have

Tiffany Scott No.

Bryan Howlin to have, hey, what are the expectations? What leads to success? You know, because

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin you have people that are working hard. If you have the right people, They're working hard. They understand what the expectations are. If they're not getting it done, is the leader digging in with them to say, figure it out? Like are you going on the road

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin to say, hey, why isn't it happening? Right. Because if I believe in you, I've given you the expectation, you're hitting accountability numbers. Why isn't it happening? Or do we just say, make more calls? Because I love that one, right? yeah, go make more calls. Okay. That's that's a good that's good leadership.

Tiffany Scott I know. Of course, it's true, you know, activity breeds results, but you have to have the right activity. And

Bryan Howlin A hundred percent.

Tiffany Scott when you start to peel back those layers, like, let's look at those meetings. Who are you meeting with? It's like, wait a second. This was the seven eleven. That is not a meeting. You know what I mean? what are you meeting with these right? So

Bryan Howlin right. That's not a buyer. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott and not to plug myself, but this is like this is the problem that I'm trying to solve because We had the same issue. You know, we had forty salespeople and they struggled. They struggled with qualifying. They struggled with getting in front of the right decision makers. There's so much time wasted. So when you would peel back the layers and see those unvetted meetings happening, now you know they're that that was hours and hours worth of work to to get in front of somebody that's gonna go nowhere, just to check a box.

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott And that's what that's when I left and I started building this software, I was like, I want to solve that problem. it's a lot more fun to get in front of better prospects too? And it's more lucrative for everybody. that's what my my software is trying to do, cause I saw it and I saw how much time and money was wasted. I think if we if there's a better way to manage on that front end. And you have better better

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott activity than to like everybody wins.

Bryan Howlin Agreed. Yeah. I mean, it's really smart, right? It's it's looking at what are the right activities. And then what are the

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin what's the volume of activities you can really get to? Right? People may only get four or five good meetings a week. Like that might be

Tiffany Scott yeah. Right.

Bryan Howlin it. Like that's what your your numbers are getting at. Build

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin the deep relationships, be a trusted advisor. And then that's what goes back to if you're just providing resumes, like you'll get some opportunities, but it's not 2017. I mean, there's a lot

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin of people that were really successful in this industry that I think were

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin really bad people. We're not good. And now that it's hard, how does

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin the really the strong sales, strong delivery rise to the top?

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin so that person who gets four or five meetings, if they're making it happen, like that's the person you want in your organization. That's who you want to lead the future

Tiffany Scott I mean, yeah.

Bryan Howlin of the growth.

Tiffany Scott It's so cliche, but like who wouldn't want the quality over the quantity if you're you know, if you're able to to close more and and come up with more lifelong partnerships that way versus just again, checking that that activity box. So silly.

Bryan Howlin Yeah. I like I'm a sales guy at heart. Like that's that's what I and leadership roles, everything like I like the sale. I

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin like being in front of the client. What salesperson wakes up and goes, B man, I hope I have a bunch of wasteful calls that I don't get any deals with because I don't want to make any money this year. It's like they they want to be successful,

Tiffany Scott I know I know I know.

Bryan Howlin so get them on the track. So

Tiffany Scott Totally, totally. Yeah. let's back up a little bit.

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott I wait well one of the things I like about you, Bryan is well this is our second meeting and it doesn't feel like it at all, first of all. And we just I know doesn't it?

Bryan Howlin No, it's not like we work in an office together twenty years ago. Right, right. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott And I did feel like that the first time we talked too because like we just kinda jumped right in and We we were we were having this exact same conversation. I mean, this was our starting point was our opinions. Like we didn't even get

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott into who who we are, but let's go back and let's start there because, you know, I wanna hear your story. and and and the whole thing and talk about some more of your I I love that you've got some hardcore and maybe controversial. opinions about what's going on in our industry right now. Yeah, so tell me about you first.

Bryan Howlin Some. Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in the Aerotech companies, right? Tech Systems Allegious

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin Group. very thankful that I grew up there because it really

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin did teach me a great foundation. Whether you hate or you you you love they they they still do a great job. And

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Yes.

Bryan Howlin so after 11 and so years there, was down in the Carolinas, I went over to a firm that was built by some Robert Half so they were all accounting finance. We built a

Tiffany Scott no.

Bryan Howlin PMO IT group from ground up.

Tiffany Scott Wow.

Bryan Howlin And that was such a great experience, right? Because now it was my responsibility to build something with not with nothing there, like sales, delivery, clients, everything.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin And you know, it wasn't my company. I may be thinking back, I wish maybe I did that and maybe I'd be in a different spot in my life, but it was fine.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin It was a great experience. and then a buddy of mine, after five years with those guys, they were just they were gonna stay a small company. I wanted to grow more, I wanted to be bigger and respected.

Tiffany Scott Okay. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin It was their company. I went over to Randstad. So I spent five years with Randstad turning around. B of A was a mess. So I took on that responsibility, was also

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin involved with their vertical strategy, felt really good about where Ronstadt was going. They had just acquired SFN, like they write the billion-dollar company in the US.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin had built a lot of great relationships, had a great run there, right? So now I'm big private, small buildup, large public. And

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin then I was recruited out to be the chief sales officer for a company called Reviture. So

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin that was a disruptive model, and that's got a lot of what gets me thinking now. What are the things

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin that our companies are doing to disrupt this stagnant marketplace we're in? So Reviture

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin was an emerging talent, right? So we were hiring kids out of US schools with computer science degrees and then training them up. We were, we were replicating the cognizant emphasis, right? The Indian system integrator model, right? Getting these kids

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin the ability to go actually code. that has obviously fizzled with AI, but what a great experience. We sold

Tiffany Scott Right. I bet.

Bryan Howlin it to a private equity firm. I was part of that whole transaction. So that was a Eye opening, wow, like there's a lot of money in this space.

Tiffany Scott Ooh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin and then and then from there I went to a company, another company. I was hired by the interim president. Same thing, helped financial services vertical. They were gonna sell the business. The founder was getting ready to retire. So went through that whole exercise that sold to a strategic partner, which that's a whole person, you know, opinion I have is how A company buys another company and basically you do the same thing. You're buying, you know, accounts,

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin market share, whatever, and completely screwed that thing up to I don't know if there's anybody still there that they bought. So you're you're you're only removed

Tiffany Scott Oof. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin a few years, and I don't know if anybody's still there. So that

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin was another great experience. And everything that I'm I'm sharing with you is like I've grown up in this industry and you know, I've learned a lot. Some were hard lessons, right? Due to my own fault, mistakes that I made, but also Just watching how people operate and just going, wow, do you really think that's the right way to do it? so then I became a a CEO of real small third-party firm. It was unfortunately it was a mess and and outside of my control. the

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin private equity had to let me go. We were out of compliance with Covenant and blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. So

Tiffany Scott Right, right.

Bryan Howlin then I consulted. So the last year I worked with a PE firm on the buy side. We were looking at a staffing firm, interesting to get them to pull out of the deal because of. As you peel back the onion, it really wasn't as pretty as it thought. I still talk to the managing director

Tiffany Scott A lot of them aren't, yeah.

Bryan Howlin now. They're trying to figure out they're gonna get back into right the acquisition

Tiffany Scott Okay.

Bryan Howlin side. and then helped a good friend of mine who owns a small accounting finance firm on the West Coast, helping him transition into the tech side. He's actually been successful. They've got

Tiffany Scott Okay.

Bryan Howlin like 20 grand in spread and they've done that over the last year and transition. So I've I've stayed in it. And I'm actually, Tiffany, I'm interviewing, I'm talking to companies now because I'm just not

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin done. Like I love this industry

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin and I'm gonna get back in. there's a Midwest firm that might be an opportunity to come in as the leader, as that individual's retiring. the company down in Atlanta I mentioned earlier in the conversation, like I've known the CEO for for years. I think they have a very smart approach. so yeah, I'm still still dabbling in it. Consulting, maybe be full time, get back on the road. I miss the road. I haven't been traveling as much. I think my

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin wife wants me to travel. She'd like me to get the hell out of the house. so

Tiffany Scott I love it.

Bryan Howlin yeah, so 28 years in the Northeast and Columbus, Ohio, and Charlotte. We're back in Maryland

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin right now. And so yeah, it's it's been a it's been a great run. And the coolest thing about it is during like you know, talking to different people, seeing what's out there. And like the last year has been tough. Like there's a lot of

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin layoffs, there's a lot of people out there, there's a lot of not good people out there.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin But it's been great to reconnect with people. And then even when you and I first met,

Tiffany Scott Yeah, good.

Bryan Howlin we talked for like three seconds and we realized we're we're two connections removed from people we already know. Right? You everybody knows everybody, so be a good person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott Right. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, especially in this industry. Totally. I know. You never know. I some so much changed after, you know, I went from I was a COO. So everything was about like internal and processes and like it's such a different such different goals and and outlook now to so I was barely networking towards the end of that that role. I didn't really need to. I think you always need to, but it wasn't my primary focus. And now

Bryan Howlin Sure.

Tiffany Scott that's all I do, obviously, because I'm building a business and selling. And I'm so enlightened every day. I have the best, I have so much fun just in networking meetings with people. I wish I never stopped this 'cause you forget the rush you can get or who you can meet or who you can introduce you to or who, you know, who can help. that's I think been the then the most fun. I can see, why you're missing getting out there.

Bryan Howlin Yeah. And it's good hearing the war stories. I have friends that are taking on big

Tiffany Scott yeah.

Bryan Howlin C level roles and they're trying to turn around a company or,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin you know, one buddy he's he's got a big job and and they they bought a couple companies they're bolting it on, they're gonna go try to sell it, right? Because it's

Tiffany Scott Okay.

Bryan Howlin got PE money in the back. And I'm like,

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin I don't know who the buyers are anymore. I don't think the big publics are gonna be in the market for acquiring companies. Maybe they are, but a lot of them have

Tiffany Scott Right. Yeah. I yeah. I haven't

Bryan Howlin failed in the last 10, 15 years. A lot of these, you know, hey, we're gonna grow by acquisition, and they haven't panned out.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin so there's a lot there's a lot of pressure on folks, but it's good to talk to 'cause then you just you kinda laugh about the old days when, you know, Beer would be in the office on a Friday afternoon and he'd be laughing about all the war stories you had, but

Tiffany Scott Frida yeah, Fridays were always like, we just give up, you know. You know, like I do miss Friday afternoons where you're just

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott like, All right, what was your craziest moment of the week? And just funny how you when that's all you deal with is people on both the client and the quote product end. god, that and I why nobody has written a book about it. those funny little stories is beyond me because that is a

Bryan Howlin yeah. Yeah. My first start was

Tiffany Scott Best seller for sure.

Bryan Howlin this guy named Shirnevasa, and we were placing him at Lockheed Martin. And it was

Tiffany Scott Okay.

Bryan Howlin a hard it was COBOL. And this is back in the mid 90s, right? COBOL was the hardest thing to find. And we got this guy. And on Friday, we get the call that he's backing out, that his wife was in an accident back in India. He has to go home. and

Tiffany Scott Ooh Oof.

Bryan Howlin I don't want to say what the accident was because hindsight it's hysterical. It's one of the funniest stories. So two weeks later, right? Of course I believed everything. I'm like, horrible,

Tiffany Scott No, you have to say that Yeah.

Bryan Howlin right? Two weeks later we we got a backfill and we had in the placement. Well, right next to Lockheed was a CSC. And just by happenstance, we're pulling into our parking spot to go into Lockheed, me and my sales rep. And there goes Shrinivasa with a CSC tag on walking in there. He's been in the I'm like, dude, what happened to your wife? And he just high-tailed it into the yeah, the good old days.

Tiffany Scott Mm. Yeah. man. The good old days. I know. We had a few like that. It was a now it's gotta be easier to bust people than before

Bryan Howlin gosh, yeah.

Tiffany Scott before, you know. We were still busting them. I that's why I was a big documenter. I learned that early on. I was like, let me scroll back here and see how many, you know, times you've killed off one of your family members, or whatever.

Bryan Howlin I know. How many times has your has your parents passed away? Right. Right.

Tiffany Scott It is like so bad. And you do, you f you in the beginning, you believe people. And I think that's why we're so gritty when you've got a few years in, I was always a skeptic, but that did not help. uncovering lies all the time. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin Well, you got turned into a skeptic, right? Unfortunately, because of all the

Tiffany Scott I'm like, I wonder I don't if I was like that to begin with. I th I might have been, Bryan. I might have been. But that didn't make it any better or easier, that's for sure. But yeah. You do and

Bryan Howlin Yeah. No. You just learn how to grow thick skin and just and move on from it.

Tiffany Scott you ask more questions and you try to get to the bottom and y you know, you trust but verify. I think that's what the bottom line is like.

Bryan Howlin I'll never forget that, like my first deal. And I cr I mean, it was like a two month. So I hadn't had a deal yet, right? And I'm I'm in a company that there's a lot of pressure to make sure you get hires. And

Tiffany Scott yeah Yeah.

Bryan Howlin but well, I regressed. It was funny. It was good, good, good learning times. But that's the funny thing,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin talking catching up with folks, you relive some of those those war stories that you grew up together.

Tiffany Scott I have some that, you know, I I think I could only talk about if this was like an after hours comedy podcast. You know?

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott Like are like the stuff people do say and that you catch is just yeah, it should be in a book.

Bryan Howlin Yes, yeah, yeah. There's a guy that worked for me in Charlotte with tech and he has the best stories. Like I I love still talking to him a couple of times a year and it's just and he'll like he got a letter from a contractor one time and actually read it in the office and we were just dying laughing. So but I'm

Tiffany Scott That's good.

Bryan Howlin not sure a lot of that goes on anymore because I think it's so competitive now that you've got to be really good at your qualifying questions and you know finding the right consultants, especially if you if you get these mishaps.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin companies, there's so many firms out there where they just may not work with you again. You know?

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Well, and that's you know, that's kind of how we were. well, how I was, I'm not wasting my time on you. And people would get so offended and mad at me. but I'm like, you're wasting my time. You know what I mean?

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott I would I have so much more respect for somebody who would come to me and say, Look, I got fired from my last job. This is what happened, I did this, you know what I mean? Instead of Well, I was I had to leave because I was caring for my sick family member, you know.

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott and it it was it and I've proven that with people. I will give you a shot if you're just honest. I try to Yeah.

Bryan Howlin Yeah, be transparent. People make mistakes.

Tiffany Scott And I still, you know, I was always still trying to help and mentor candidates. I still do. I think that's one of the biggest things is just being genuine. even if it's Just the fact that it's so easy to bust you now and people are recruiters are smart. Like you can see right through it. So it's

Bryan Howlin Yeah, especially with all the tools we have and everything. And yeah, absolutely.

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin and it's it's now even gonna so it was funny. We were talking when we first started speaking about like the solution side.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin You know, the one point I I I just wanted your opinion on this. So a lot of these staffing firms are trying to drive into solutions, right? Like true, true solutions, not staffing on steroids, like really like kind of own project. What can we do, right? That's a the a little risky, but we know we can deliver and we've hired engineers, we've done Right. the world of AI, everyone's talking about AI. I love that everybody's AI centric. And I think about 10% really are. But

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm. Right.

Bryan Howlin yeah. But they're trying to go up the totem pole, right? Staffing traditional

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin staffing firms where look at all these consulting firms or big tech firms that now have a human capital arm, like Deloitte's of the world,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin Accentures and Worldwide Technology, like these big companies

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin have like, because the clients are like, look. We'll just go to you. So 15, 20 years ago, Accenture would farm that out to be a staffing

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin agency. Now they're like, we've got our own department. So that's

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin the other aspect of the challenge of transforming into that is how do you go up when these guys are coming down and they're taking a lot of the business? So

Tiffany Scott Yeah. I know you're kind of competing with their own, right? Is that that's what you're saying? Like the competition

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott is its own department. You know, I I I think that companies trying to do this on their own. I think it's a long shot. And here's why.

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott What what's the company? What is your specialty? Your specialty is not human capital. It's not staffing. It's not HR. It's not hiring. Okay, you have that department as a layer, but why wouldn't you want to bring on somebody that that's a hundred percent of what they do? That is their only job, is to know this stuff, to learn it, to and to be able to you know, really transform. I'll use our buzzword.

Bryan Howlin Yeah. Yeah. The transform.

Tiffany Scott You're right. Your your cul your culture. And I think if we looked at it more that way, how much time do you have to invest in now training these people, staying up with

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott you know, things in why people are why retention is is low? Like hiring an expert

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott is never a bad idea if you hire the right one. That's

Bryan Howlin Yeah, go go go to the industry. That's I agree. And

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin and I know one of the big companies did. They they went out and they hired somebody who hits all he's done in his world is staffing. And he's brought in staffing people. And they said, look, we're going, this is going to be a division without,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin you know, without any you know, concern from the consulting side or right, the

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin people that are look because the margins of consulting are way higher than staff law, right? It it is and the margins have

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin gotten you know lower in staff law. But if you're really gonna do it, hire the people that know that and and

Tiffany Scott Totally.

Bryan Howlin let them run that that division or whatever you have for you and that will work.

Tiffany Scott Yeah. And I think you can hold them more accountable too, honestly. You don't have to worry

Bryan Howlin heck yeah.

Tiffany Scott then about your, you know, hurting anybody's feelings. I'm not saying be a jerk to your, you know, to your vendors or your partners, but I'm saying there's a different level of relationship there that gives you some flexibility. You know, and they have, you know, it's not like, I don't like this culture anymore, I'm gonna leave. Like that's their problem now. and I just it's the same thing that you see with with tech, with IT. All right. I know that a lot of companies will bring that internally, but that's why it's such a huge industry, is because those are the experts. They do that a hundred percent of the time. And you don't want that burden when what you make is, you know, cars. Go be good at making cars. Why would you want to be good at hiring and and growing your Culture. I know that sounds almost bad, but bring in people, hold them accountable to do it is all I'm saying. I'm a big believer in in you know, be good at one thing and then surround yourself with peo other people that are good at something else, you know.

Bryan Howlin Yeah. Yeah. You sell I don't know, bathing suits. Be the best bathing suit manufacturer out there, right? That's what you do.

Tiffany Scott Totally Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Bryan Howlin I think it could be the future opportunity in human capital is that because of the law over the last several years, and it is like we talked 25%, whatever the number is. And again, this is just technology sector. But

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm. Right.

Bryan Howlin if you if you think about like some of these companies, I wonder if the big companies start even using more contingent, like project based partners,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin right? Consulting partners. And just because you want to get in, here's the job. We got to get it done, but get them out. What did

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin happen? I think too many companies just relied on a Contractors to stay too long, right? They were there too long. They get one job one

Tiffany Scott Yeah, probably.

Bryan Howlin job to do the next job. And then it became such a you know part of the of the culture of your big company. A good friend of mine, like Coach Lacrosse with, and he was telling me this is last year. He works for a huge finance company. And he's in the risk side. And he said one of the things they were looking at is the growth of their external IT spend. So with their India partners, the consulting partners, staffing partners, whatever, is outpacing the growth of the company. And he goes, We got to stop that because we're spending, you know, more and more each year on these external services, but we're only growing at this clip. He goes, at some point,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin that balance is just off. And that's where

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin I think companies are gonna get smart and say, look, bring them in. Here's the job. And then this goes back to my. What I think is happening in this space, people are trying to transform. What are you going to do? Right. Pick your lane and do it great. If you're going to get into solutions,

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin what are the things you're going to do? Because you're competing

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin with a lot of firms. And if you try to do a lot of different things, which is end of the day, you end up backing up and being staffing on steroids, right? You're just hiring people you don't know to just do a job.

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin Companies aren't going to want that. They want intimacy. They want people that know their business

Tiffany Scott No. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin that can come in, get it done, right? Knock it out and then move and move on. So.

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin It's such an exciting

Tiffany Scott I know. It's it's har

Bryan Howlin time.

Tiffany Scott it is, it is. And I think, you know, to their point about the cost, it's tough when you present yourself as a partner versus like a vendor who can just check some boxes. I think that's where you've got more value, right? And you can kind of push the the pricing. But I think there has to be a happy middle ground too. It's like can you have a long term forever partnership with somebody like Come on, be fair. So some of these companies I think go a little overboard with their fees. And then others go overboard the other way. And they go so so low. and then they expect the quality on top of it. You know, it's like it just creates

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott such chaos all over the market.

Bryan Howlin I always hate I always hated the I always hated the cheap provider. Hey, we'll do it for five my ugh gosh, that's your that's your that's your pitch? Yeah, well that's your pitch.

Tiffany Scott I and w and why are you talking to me? Like let's go let's let's dig in here. Yeah, know. Ugh.

Bryan Howlin I wonder I wonder, this is I I don't know, this is a controversial statement and maybe I'm dead wrong. I think the world of the MSP is gonna be gone soon.

Tiffany Scott why is that?

Bryan Howlin I just you know, I look at some of these companies that I partnered with and they had so many external vendors that they got an MSP in there to control, right? So there's

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin you know co-employment issues and and and controlling costs and all those things. You had all these different vendors. I wonder now if they just look at their internal people and say, look, we need to go if there's an IT executive and says, Hey, I want to partner with you know Tiffany Scott Incorporated because this is what they're gonna do and this is the timeline,

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin here, here's the cost. I wonder if they're just not gonna just go direct because

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin If look at these companies that have you know 10 or 15 staffing vendors, how many times is there an issue with the same resume? Like you're providing the same thing.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin And staffing is now one of the multiples of human capital solutions you have to provide. It's project-based work, it's understanding, you know, again, AI is a huge piece of it. How are they, you know, implementing AI in their business, whatever their business is, they're a bank or a bathing suit manufacturer, whatever it is, how are they implementing that? And do

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin we really need somebody who's just controlling our staffing vendors? Or do we just

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin use the partners that we need and go from there? I mean, I get rogue spend and there's all those things, but

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin I I I just don't if I were a CIO, I don't know if I would want an MSP. I would have controls in place that you know every manager couldn't work with somebody. We would have like, hey, if you use this, here's our preferred vendors and you tell me why you're not using those four or five or eight, whatever it is, and tell

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin me why you're bringing somebody else in. But the The the S the evolution of technology right now is is changing so fast, right?

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin We still don't know the global real impacts of AI,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin right? What are the talent pools coming out of AI? Who are the companies that can really be truly a data engineering partner?

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin So all of those things that are impacting the industry, I just don't know if some of the the the older ways to do things are still gonna be around the next few years. I don't know, it could wrong, but the rest of the watch.

Tiffany Scott Well, I hope you're right. Because I think the MSP model sucks. And this

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott is coming from a you know, years of of we I mean we had we had an MSP because we had to. We had to stay competitive. But here's why I think it sucks. It it makes hiring it makes the most important part of higher your hiring decisions transactional. And I think that is the worst thing that any organization can do is to look at bringing on a human being who is going to be part of their culture and their growth and their, you know, long or short, short term, and making it a transaction where you're just swiping your credit card. And I just feel like most MSPs, that's what they turn into. I know that's not what the individuals who work there believe and think and feel, but that is what the model is. It is. Just a way to manage transactions. there's so much that you lose, I think. And anything then it just becomes a bottom line.

Bryan Howlin And people and the and the people servicing the client become very transactional. That's one of the biggest

Tiffany Scott Very

Bryan Howlin challenges of companies getting in this transformation

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin is you're full of your field is transactional. They don't know how to ask right consultative questions. You know, how do you get a meeting with a C C level executive and be consultative? yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tiffany Scott then the rules and everything is like, are you kidding me? Like, come on, I can't take anybody to lunch. Are you serious? It's

Bryan Howlin I know.

Tiffany Scott ridiculous. Now, I'm not saying I have a better way to manage all of that stuff. although give me a day, I could probably come up with something. It's not.

Bryan Howlin It's not rocket science, you can figure it out.

Tiffany Scott But no, I think anything that supports or doesn't support making making your people the most important part of your business, I I wouldn't want any part of it. So I hope you're right. I hope I hope you're right.

Bryan Howlin I again, if I'm running a company, I want partners that are intimate, that know what my business is, know what my struggles

Tiffany Scott Totally.

Bryan Howlin are, know exactly what we're dealing with. And whether it's the, you know, the body, right? I need a contractor for something, or it's, hey, I need you to do this. I need, you know, we need this reengineered and we don't have the people to do it. Can your organization do that? Right. and if that partner

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Bryan Howlin can't, do they have a channel partner that they can bring in? Do they are they really trying to figure out the solution for the customer? And that is the end of that is the goal of this whole transformation. Can you be

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin intimate with the customer and figure out the solution that they need, whether you can do it or you can help them figure out how to do it. That's key.

Tiffany Scott Yeah. It it is. And and I think where do we use where do we use that most? Your call centers, your I'm trying to think of the last time I had a pleasant customer service experience. Why? Probably because they were checking a box and they were filling a role, you know, that person hates their job and they're not a good match and they take it out on me. but that's what that's what you get when you cut your costs and you make a transaction. And I don't think some and these bigger bigger companies, they can afford that type of sloppiness, until they can't and it will catch up. it all goes back to the right hiring, I think. May it goes full circle. Fur full circle.

Bryan Howlin Yeah, I know that that's true. Yeah, you know, but as we talked, you know, it's it I you know, I know we're been talking for a while. All these things, all these challenges, you know, big public struggling, there's a lot of private equity. Some of these small companies are trying to figure out w you know, a lot of these small companies, I think people are like, hey, I'm just gonna sell because I don't want to go through this again, you know, the

Tiffany Scott Ooh, yeah.

Bryan Howlin mom and pop shops. There is

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin with all of this noise, really an incredible opportunity on the horizon. I think. There's it not many are gonna rise to the top, but some are. There is a

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin huge opportunity because I think we're gonna see less utilization of staff aug of pure play. You need more partners. I think some of these smaller firms are really gonna struggle, right? This is a lifestyle for them, right? They're 10 million and you know, the owner makes a lot of money and they're happy with that.

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Right.

Bryan Howlin I I you know, I I do think this in a very positive way, there's a huge opportunity on the horizon.

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin Know who you want to be, go to the right market

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin and get the right people to go run your business. I think there's gonna be

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin some companies that come out of this smoke that we're in looking really good and and with a great future. So we'll see. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott I agree. I agree. And it's always the smaller percent, I did a webinar and we were talking about the the whole thing was sales and you know how our t you know, we make excuses, especially anytime the market is crap, right? So it's always easy to blame the market. But my whole thing was, well, what about this? What about the one percent that Succeeded? What about the 1% that grew the last few years? You know, what what is their excuse for making it? And you know, we we got into this whole thing about, well, being great is completely it's easier to be great. I love that saying by Jim Collins, the book Goods are great, but nobody wants to take that extra step. Like it's easier not to have to redo work or, you know, you can be good all day long, but it's but nobody does it. Only the small percentage will take the longer route for a better outcome. Everybody wants to take shortcuts. of course in the moment it's always feels easier.

Bryan Howlin A lot easier.

Tiffany Scott But then you usually have a mess to clean up afterwards, so

Bryan Howlin Yeah, it's yeah. How do you be great? You know, if really a guy that is a mentor of mine, and we we we were talking about this about six, seven months ago. I was saying, Hey, I've had some interviews, I haven't found what I want to do, right? I want the right company opportunity, like I want to go in one more run, blah blah. And he's and he brought up a really good analogy and he said, if you look at the NFL, so the NFL is the most competitive professional sport out there, right? Because of the salary cap,

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin how they do the draft, You look, you hit a home run with getting a quarterback like a Patrick Mahomes or Lamar Jackson, something like that.

Tiffany Scott yeah.

Bryan Howlin There's a little bit of luck involved with you know getting the right thing. But the but the end of the

Tiffany Scott yeah.

Bryan Howlin day, like the Patriots, like they were not good two years ago and get all the way to the Super Bowl last year, right? So it's he goes, it's it it is there is some luck to it, but you gotta have

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin the right strategy. Is everybody on the same page as far as what we need, right?

Tiffany Scott yeah.

Bryan Howlin You can relate that back to business. The right leader, right? I think there's a lot of bad leaders out there right now that

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin You know, make more calls. That's a great, yeah, you go make more calls. Okay, that's great leadership. And

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Great.

Bryan Howlin then you you combine all that and he goes, he goes, think about Brian's the next role you get in, think about that, right? You're gonna need a little bit of luck, but luck only comes if you're out

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin working your competition. He's like, surround yourself with surround yourself with great people. Make sure whoever's above you, right? Unless you start your own company, you're gonna have somebody above you. Make sure it's

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin the right leader, right? That means the culture bleeds throughout the organization that people want to

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin work together. They're transparent, they're collaborative, right? They're not selfish saying, hey, it's my deal, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, and make sure that the, the, the, the playbook, which is again, staff all, solutions, what are you going, who you're trying to be? It's like all that

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin lines up. He goes, I, he goes, I challenge you to make sure that's the next move you make

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin professionally. And I was like, that is really great advice.

Tiffany Scott It was really great advice. So have you is that part of what you're working into your strategy to find your next role to? Like how have

Bryan Howlin I am.

Tiffany Scott you applied that r now?

Bryan Howlin Well, so I one of the things we did with this PE firm that I was working with, they actually AI'd my resume because of like I have a d just a good background of this business, right? Startup and you know, sell off. They

Tiffany Scott Hm. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin had an internal person send my resume all these different places and they were just trying

Tiffany Scott Okay.

Bryan Howlin to look at what hiring profiles. I'm having direct conversations about where I'm gonna go. Right. So I've

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Right.

Bryan Howlin I've got some things in the works. there was an opportunity a couple months ago. It was not the right move for me.

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin so I I tried late last year and realized this is the wrong time to be doing it. Everyone's there's cuts,

Tiffany Scott Mm. Okay.

Bryan Howlin there's people were just in in kind of panic mode in Q4 of last year. Plus it's Q4,

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin right? Companies want to see what their next year is gonna look like.

Tiffany Scott Course.

Bryan Howlin so I am just really using my network and saying, look, this is what I want to do.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin and it's interesting because I came out of a a CEO role. I mean, I use those three letters loosely. It was a small company, I had

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin portfolios 10 times the size. I've been very clear with everybody I'm talking to. Like I want to have client facing revenue generating responsibility.

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin I don't want to read BI reports. I don't want to just sit there and manage. Like

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin I want to get on the road, be with the client. I'm interested to hear the client. I want to know what's going on, you know, today that's been impacted over the last couple of years. and I'm diving into AI. Like I'm Yeah, there's a coursive K course that you can take. It's called coursive like really diving into what AI is gonna do because I don't

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin know the answer. So that's that's part of what my own education is just

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin really trying to understand that 'cause that is gonna be the future at some level in anything we all do, whether it's y

Tiffany Scott yeah.

Bryan Howlin you're a big bank or, you know, a solutions organization. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott Absolutely. No, I think that I l I like your outlook and I like what you're doing. And I like what you want to do because honestly it's so rare. Everybody wants to do the opposite. You're leveraging AI to help boost h what you can provide and how you could still be even better client facing. And everybody else, I think not everybody, but a lot of people want to take AI and make it their forefront. Like out there. operating and I'm similar. I'm I'm doing a little bit of both because I'm leveraging it as much as I possibly can because I'm you know solo just growing a business by myself. So I'm like, okay, well where don't I need to be that I can use AI, but where do I want to be? And it's yeah, the the the face you have to be. That's you know where the biggest impact

Bryan Howlin Yeah. Yeah, I love I

Tiffany Scott always is gonna be.

Bryan Howlin I love watching LinkedIn and all these people and firms. Okay, we are we are AI agnostic. I go, what in the hell does that mean? What are you talking

Tiffany Scott Yeah, what does that mean?

Bryan Howlin about? What is that? What does that mean? But yeah, it's

Tiffany Scott That's that's it's kinda a good pitch for me.

Bryan Howlin Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like I said, there's great opportunity out there 'cause I think there's a lot of buffoons doing the same old, same old and they're not figuring out how to get out of it. So but anyway.

Tiffany Scott Yeah. So as you look back, what would you say is one of your biggest regrets or biggest mistakes in your career?

Bryan Howlin how I left my first role was a huge mistake that would both personally and professionally, right? But it was

Tiffany Scott Hmm. Okay.

Bryan Howlin young and, you know, d full of arrogance. You know, we were all driving so hard and and thought I was I don't know who I thought I was. That was the biggest one.

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin But in the same breath, like how I picked myself up from that and kind of rebuilt my career, both

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin personally and professionally, actually. Because you know, what had happened was, you know, it was just it was it was disrespectful to my family. And I was just, I was just not a good guy. I was very arrogant. And to be able to swallow some humility, but also have the same confidence and and drive to say, I'm gonna rebuild it. Cause you have to have, there's a little bit of cockiness you have to have in a sales role. You have to be confident in yourself, right? So confidence, not cockiness.

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Right, of course. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin And I was able to, you know, pick myself back up and rebuild it and and move forward and drive.

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin And probably most importantly is is maintain some really, really great relationships that I've had in this industry, like people that are my best friends.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin so yeah. Yeah. We all make mistakes.

Tiffany Scott What what was the kicker for you to realize that you were screwing up? Like what was that straw?

Bryan Howlin My wife saying you're being an asshole. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott Good for her. Good for her. And good for y and good for you for like not because, you know, we get stubborn sometimes. for, you know, holding yourself accountable. It's that's the hardest thing, I think, is to accept the coaching. It's harder to

Bryan Howlin Yeah, absolutely.

Tiffany Scott accept it than it is to give it sometimes, you know? So

Bryan Howlin Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott humil I yeah, I was like that in the beginning too. I mean, you you try to be, you know, tough in this in Whatever you're doing, but especially in this business, like you it can go to your head. And and me as a I hate talking about being a woman in business because I I hate highlighting it, but I had this, you know, I had to prove myself mentality in the beginning. And, you know, I went all the way over one way to reel myself back in. you know, I think it for me it was I wasn't confident enough. And then I got. Cocky, right? It was so you kind of find that that middle ground and humility I think is the toughest skill to master, or even try to work it in. but man, is it the most rewarding, I think.

Bryan Howlin Yeah. Well, I think you're saying is what we all learn as y you figure it out. Like we're in the people business, like be a good person. Right. Things may not work out with

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin a company or maybe an employee that works for you. You have a person you like, but they're just not getting

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin it done. You got to move on. That's the business side, but but do it the right way and treat people with respect.

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin you know, have clarity in what you want to try to accomplish and and and be a good person.

Tiffany Scott Mm, yeah.

Bryan Howlin And that's the you can still have a lot of gusto and and drive. But humility in that drive to know that look, we are dealing with people. Whether you're a consulting organization, staffing or whatever, it's you're dealing with people and do it the right way. Too many companies just

Tiffany Scott yeah.

Bryan Howlin don't do it the right way. They're just, it's a, it's, it's

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin just the it's just the bottom line. Look, it's all about numbers. We know what it You've got to

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin be, you're not gonna do this for nothing. But if it's just about that and you can't get outside of that number, you're not gonna, you're not gonna, you're not gonna make it through this transformation. But I'm bumped. There's a transformation again.

Tiffany Scott No. No. Yeah. Transformation. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin This is fun. This is an easy conversation. I like this.

Tiffany Scott So Yeah, it really is. And I think we've been talking almost an hour already. You believe that? That's

Bryan Howlin Yes, we have.

Tiffany Scott crazy. I feel like it's been five minutes. we better Make sure we can fit everything in. Well, that's the other thing too, is I don't know what we have time to fit in sometimes. I've left these conversations like I don't think we talked talked about much. We gotta have a part two. You know, and like finish up. We really have. Yeah.

Bryan Howlin Yeah, I know. We've we've no, we've talked about a lot. Yeah, we've we've done no, we've talked about a lot. There's so much to talk about. You know what's gonna be cool, Tiffany, is to see I I think in in the next twenty-four months to see what this industry that you and I grew up in looks like.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin Right. I and again, I I I do think there's so many outside influences with AI, with with companies wanting more from their partners.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin it's just gonna be an interesting, you know, a lot of people exiting the business. Like I have a lot of friends that are they're done.

Tiffany Scott Really?

Bryan Howlin run and so that's just gonna be

Tiffany Scott Wow.

Bryan Howlin it's gonna be maybe we'll maybe we'll do it again in a year or two and say, okay, what's changed?

Tiffany Scott We should and we should and we will we have to watch this right before to refresh our our memories about it. Yeah. Yeah. It's you know, especially with with AI, I mean, a year ago would not have been able to create my own software. And now I can. I manage it, I develop it and I maintain it myself. It wasn't there a year ago. It was Not even on a regular

Bryan Howlin Crazy.

Tiffany Scott person's radar whatsoever. I'm sure the AI experts saw it on the map. We didn't. it literally they flipped a switch and there's just this unbelievable amount of automation we can use that's not bad anymore. I think we're still trying to figure out which ones are good and which ones are bad, but to see what that will do. to this industry, who will leverage it right, who won't. we're gonna see a lot of experimenting. And I think you're right about only 10% are really using it. It may even be less than that.

Bryan Howlin Yeah, that's the whole, like I looked on LinkedIn and all these companies, like, we're AI agnostic. And it's like I that's the whole experimentation. Like everyone's saying, like, we've adopted it. We're our our arms

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin are around it. We're embracing it. It's like, okay, what are

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin you doing? Because your customer, by the way, needs to know what you really know because the big companies are the ones that are really trying to figure out what are we like, think about like a bank. Like how

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin careful they need to be with. you know, AI tools in their business

Tiffany Scott Ooh, yeah. Totally.

Bryan Howlin when you have so many, you know, personal information and and everything. It's just

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin you really gotta understand like what it can do for your business.

Tiffany Scott Well, and they the I don't know what the status, but the laws that are changing because of all of this, it's like rapid fire. Yeah, you don't I and I have to keep up with it because now I'm in this space too. man, that's another new thing I gotta add to my privacy policy and uphold. It's like, my gosh. So Y it's a lot to keep up with. people will get themselves into a lot of trouble if they're you know, that that'll be that'll be a new staffing specialty is just AI compliance, right? Yeah.

Bryan Howlin Potentially. Yeah. Yeah. Potentially. That's right. Yeah. Have a whole division that does nothing but AI compliance.

Tiffany Scott Yeah, totally. Well, Bryan, you and I I think just wanted to get on here and have some fun, but what would you want people to know about you?

Bryan Howlin gosh, what a what a question that is. I don't know. I mean if there's look, there's a people that know me kind of know like I'm a good guy, like I'm fun, I have a lot of fun, like I I'd like to enjoy life. I give a crap about people, as long as you're a good person. I think from a business perspective, like I I've done a lot. I mean the only thing I didn't do and I thought about it twenty years ago, and it's it's way too late now, is start my own thing. Like so many people had. I I

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin Didn't need to do that. There's so many firms opening. But just I've had a really interesting career. I mean, you know, the the leader in the industry, large public, small, built from ground up. and I and I'm young and I have a ton of gas in my tank. So I'm going on another run because I want to be

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin in the market as this thing goes through this evolution that we're going through. because we're just on the cusp of all this stuff. I mean, the the you know, crap market, it is a crap. It is what it is. Like everyone's talked about how tough it is out there. But there's

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin gonna be some companies and and solutions providers that come out of this thing with a head of steam. And I want to be a part of one of those.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin And then when I'm done, just call it quits. Like like I was telling my like my daughter got in this industry without my help. Like I

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Yeah, okay.

Bryan Howlin didn't refer. She got into this. She she might be doing something different in the near future. But sh we were talking about it and I was like, I go, it's Staffing is nothing like it was when I started. I said it's changed so much. And I said, and we're going through, I think, the most critical time right now. Like I think we're we're

Tiffany Scott That right.

Bryan Howlin in the beginning phases of in we're in the knee deep of this change because of

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm.

Bryan Howlin technology changes, because of you know. a market that's been saturated with firms and and not good firms, right? And the big publics

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin and the consulting firms coming into our space and private equity money. Like there's so many things that are going on that

Tiffany Scott Right.

Bryan Howlin I want to get in the you know, definitely get get with a group of people that are like minded that want to drive to something and go on one more run. So I'm excited about that. It'll it'll it'll

Tiffany Scott Mm-hmm. Nice. What's

Bryan Howlin be sooner.

Tiffany Scott what's a piece of advice you gave to her that would be helpful for the rest of us in this industry?

Bryan Howlin I yeah, I told her, I said, look, you've gotta like this job. I said, you've gotta like what

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin this job does. And I think too many people do it because it is in the it's an easy industry to get into. Like if you're you're good, like she played college athletics, right? She's got good personality, you know, speaks

Tiffany Scott yeah. yeah.

Bryan Howlin well, all that. Like so she's gonna get hired. I said you've gotta like what you do because if you don't, you're not gonna service, you know, whether you're selling projects or staffing or whatever.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin You're not gonna service the people that you're trying to place, and you're not gonna service your customer. You gotta really like what you do, which she doesn't love it. So I think she's gonna maybe get into software at some point or something like that. And I and

Tiffany Scott okay.

Bryan Howlin I said, look, I I don't blame you at all. It's it's it's not for everyone.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin I said, but you gotta and she was she thanked me. She's like, you know what? I don't love it. I said, but then you know figure something else out. You'll you'll figure it out.

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin and and most importantly, just just be honest. Be be just be honest. Right.

Tiffany Scott Yes. I think that's two pieces

Bryan Howlin Yes.

Tiffany Scott of very good advice. Especially the love part because it's a very chal it's it's challenging, it's grueling, it's you know, you get beat up literally sometimes you feel like. And if you don't have that passion for it, it's just it's not sustainable. And I don't know why I ended up loving it. I really don't. I think it was because, you know, you get that win every six months and you're like, This is why I do it. This is this feels good.

Bryan Howlin Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott This is great, you know. But I did corporate recruiting before that. So I was I was hesitant to get into staffing. I hated corporate recruiting. I was so

Bryan Howlin That's a hard transition.

Tiffany Scott it is I was so bored. I thought, I was dull. You know, I was working with internal hiring managers that were just really mean and you know, it was so so getting into staffing, I had the the like transferable skills. but I didn't realize I was gonna love it. And it's so different. It really is so different. But definitely good advice. Definitely good advice. And you tell

Bryan Howlin Yeah, thanks.

Tiffany Scott the one one, maybe two more questions, but I saw you were an a awarded SIA top hundred.

Bryan Howlin I I was back in

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin I don't know what year it was. So it was when I was with Reviture.

Tiffany Scott Okay.

Bryan Howlin And the funny thing was I was I had just left Randstad and I was actually nominated by somebody from Randstad. So that's how I

Tiffany Scott How cool.

Bryan Howlin that's how I got into that list. I was and when I came yeah, when I came over to to

Tiffany Scott That's awesome. That is not an easy list.

Bryan Howlin be the No, and I was very, yeah, very proud of that. Yeah. it doesn't mean a hill

Tiffany Scott Yeah. Well congrats on that.

Bryan Howlin of beans other than people I think recognize you as being an impact player in the industry. and

Tiffany Scott Yeah.

Bryan Howlin I I I think taking on that role of chief sales officer at Ravenshire, like what we were doing then was very disruptive in the marketplace. Like we were

Tiffany Scott Mm.

Bryan Howlin and we we sold it too quick. I wish we would have stuck around for another year, but the th it just it gained so much traction and you know, the sale price, the owner couldn't pass up. yeah, thank you

Tiffany Scott Stop yeah.

Bryan Howlin for for for noticing that. Yeah, that was a cool thing. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott Yeah, that's exciting. Well, I'm a I'm excited for you know a little jealous. That would have been a fun little accomplishment, but definitely not an easy one. So congrats on that. And

Bryan Howlin Thank you. Thank you.

Tiffany Scott well, Bryan, I'm really excited to see what not just what the industry does, but to see what you do within it and who you impact next. This was an awesome conversation. I, I've learned from you, I've been enlightened by you, I've been, you know, re energized by our conversations. So thank you for that and and thanks for being a guest. It was it's a lot of fun.

Bryan Howlin Yeah, I was I enjoyed it. I've watched some of the podcasts. I think you do a great job and and you're just you're a good spark you're you're a spark club.

Tiffany Scott Thanks.

Bryan Howlin You're a fun person to hang out and talk to. So thank you.

Tiffany Scott No one's ever called me a spark plug before. That's a good one. All right, cool.

Bryan Howlin you are. Yeah. No. You're real. You definitely don't you definitely don't fluff the conversation. I love that about ya.

Tiffany Scott I appreciate that. Actually, I'll can I tell you one last story before we wrap up. I'll tell you why. A candidate

Bryan Howlin Please. Yeah.

Tiffany Scott is the reason why. I had a candidate when I was I first started. I was like 25 years old and I was furloughing people. And I was doing it like a script

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott because I was nervous and I was scared and I you don't want to have those conversations. But I'm the new girl, so give the new girl the furloughs. Yeah, because that makes sense. And this

Bryan Howlin Yeah.

Tiffany Scott And it was I shouldn't say candidate, it was an employee like an employee that I was furloughing and and she jacked me up. She said, You sound like a robot She's like, I'm gonna give you some advice here, honey. You sound like a robot. She's like, You know, you're calling to tell

Bryan Howlin Be real.

Tiffany Scott me that I'm losing a job. And she's like, and this place sucks because you guys furlough me all the time. It was a shitty client, you know, one of those that we just can get our inventory in, you know. and and she put me In my place, I will never forget her. From that moment on, it changed my entire life because she told me that. And I was like, this makes sense. and ever since then, I was like, Let me just talk like I would talk to anybody and s and just be real. And that literally changed my career, changed my life, everything, every interaction, every relationship, forever. And I'll be forever grateful for her for jacking me the hell up and putting me in my place. It was it was Yeah. Well, she was scary.

Bryan Howlin Good on her and and a and good on you for good on you for recognizing it 'cause not a lot of people do.

Tiffany Scott She scared me. So and she was very right. I was like, I feel robotic. I feel it. But yeah, good for her for and she changed my life. She changed my life. So on that note, now I'm a spark plug and I'll take it.

Bryan Howlin Awesome time with you, Tiffany. I appreciate it. Yeah. Fun.

Tiffany Scott You too, Bryan.